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God's Laws (and who they apply to)
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After getting the OK from C Laird his initial feedback (from the Contact form) has been placed below and others are encouraged to comment as well.  Please tell us what you think about his comment.  This topic has been discussed between C Laird and the Editor of BTL by way of email, but we want your input too.  - Editor
 

 
C Larid from Texas (USA) wrote by way of the Feedback page:

I really enjoyed the timelines that you have put together and it's obvious you have spent a lot of time on them. I see below in the "share your thoughts" that your website is not affiliated with any group or denomination. I read your statement of faith and went through the page for "The Sacrificial system & The Law of God Timeline."

God does not change - agreed.

Sin is the transgression of the law - agreed.

God will not "changed the rules in the middle of the game" - is misleading. You quoted Malachi 3:6. Again, I agree - it's scripture. Matthew 5:18 - I agree with the scripture, but I don't believe you completely addressed the scripture.

Till heaven and earth pass, not jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

So - no LAW will be changed until "all be fulfilled".

You started to describe the new covenant law - 1. Love God 2. Love others as self. Very important and agreed - again - it's scripture.

I'm not sure how you brought in the argument of "weren't the 10 commandments just for the Jews". But let's expound there.

The Mosaic covenant was between God and who? Israel, right?

But you elaborate to say how all moral law existed before man was formed. I agree with that. Moral law would be the 5th-10th commandments. Loving God would included the 1st-3rd commandments. (please dissect this if you'd like). I can agree that the 1-3rd commandments were also in effect before man (graven image I can be on-board with also). The Sabbath - the 4th command - I'll table that for the moment.

Sacrificial and ceremonial laws - I think they were fully created after man - to deal with the sins of man.

So - again, you say God will not "change the rules in the middle of the game." 

I don't believe that assertion at all.  

1. Man existed for a time and then God flooded the entire world. (I understand it's God's right, but He had never done it before - nor will ever again)

2. Sacrificial law went into place. That's a change.

3. Ceremonial law went into place. That's change.

4. Dietary law went in place. That's certainly change - because before God said - OF EVERYTHING IN THE GARDEN YOU CAN PARTAKE. But then restrictions came in and became abominations.

5. 10 commandments came into effect - 9 of them I believe were established - by and large. The Sabbath though - this is such a unique command. the first Sabbath - which some call it, happened on the 7th day - AFTER the creation of man and certainly was not mentioned as being a moral law or a law in heaven prior to the 7th day. Remember - Satan, angels and all that were already around - as mentioned in Job. No Sabbath for them.

Then Ceremonial law falls away and Sacrificial law falls away and dietary law falls away - but again, your assertion is that God wouldn't change the rules mid game. That statement is NOT the same as "I change not". The rules did change. Sacrificial law was satisfied by Jesus's sacrifice. Ceremonial law was satisfied by Jesus's sacrifice. Now, how do we know this? Because Jesus fulfilled the law. He didn't abolish it, he fulfilled it. He didn't do away with it, but it was no longer a requirement for those who have Jesus in them (who have bowed a knee and trust in Christ as their Lord and Savior). Till all be fulfilled, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till heaven and earth pass. Was the law fulfilled? That's ultimately up to you to decide.

Jews still follow the 10 commandments as they are required. Messianic Jews also, by in large follow them as well. There is a lot to be said about tradition. People who are neither Jew nor Christian - are they required to follow the 10 commandments. The bible says - the law is written on everyone's heart, right?

Why was the Sabbath established? Jews were so hung up on working, working, working and their own selfish desires. I believe God established this time, for the Jews to STOP for a day (remember the long march from Egypt?) and remember who God was and to remember the suffering and bondage that they were under for so long. They needed to remember their heritage and they still do today... Everyone else in the world apart from Christians and Jews are under the law, but they don't follow it and they certainly don't (for the most part) keep the sabbath rest either. But they also don't have Jesus in their heart and Jesus is not Lord over their lives.

Jesus imputes righteousness on us and ultimately Jesus is the end of law for righteousness - "works based faith" - for those who believe and trust in Jesus. If Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and we invite Jesus to live in us - then what?

For those people who take a Sabbath rest today - I think that can be an amazing and wonderful time to reflect on God's greatness, His Glory, His work in our lives and it gives a time for them to Worship God. There is no shame in this. I think that's amazing...

But do you know when I give Jesus glory? Every day. When I get time for lunch - I often spend time in His word. When I am led, I take off. When an opportunity is opened, I share the story of Jesus. No good works that I do are of me, myself. They are of Jesus and for Jesus. Every day my friend. But I no longer live my life concerned with the 10 commandments as my mark to achieve righteousness. I receive that directly from Christ. I had the tutor/trainer and I now have faith in the one true and living God, Jesus Christ...

God bless you and your ministry. I see many fruits in your works. 
 
[C Laird -Texas]




 

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Dan (Editor)
2016-10-15 6:23 AM

C Laird wrote:  "your assertion is that God wouldn't change the rules mid game. That statement is NOT the same as "I change not". The rules did change. Sacrificial law was satisfied by Jesus's sacrifice. Ceremonial law was satisfied by Jesus's sacrifice." 

You are right, I did not explain myself very well, and some of His laws DID change, but what I was referring to was the law of Heaven.  I believe that the law that God's government is founded on, the law of LOVE (explained by way of the 10 Commandments) has not changed. Every government needs laws to survive, and God's government is not exempt.  Even our own traffic laws here in the USA give us freedom and protect us.  It's a good thing to stop at STOP signs.  It's a good thing to avoid driving past BRIDGE OUT signs.

Like I said above, I have come to understand the 10 Commandments as God's way of telling us what we will do when we love God with all of our hearts.  We know that the first 4 Commandments tell us what loving God means, and the last 6 tell us what we will do if we love our neighbor.

We are not saved by ANYTHING we can do.  (You mentioned that to me in an email, & I agree!)  It is my belief that when we keep the Commandments it will be proof-positive that we love God with all of our hearts.  But, I believe that all of us are still in the process of coming to the place where we REALLY love God, and so none of us are really perfect yet, except as we ask for forgiveness.  Like a stalk of corn, we can be "perfect" at each stage, yet not mature, not all grown up.  I think we Christians are very much like that. 

We don't keep the Commandments to become Christians, we keep them because we ARE Christians.  This can be compaired to an apple tree, it does not produce apples so that it can become an apple tree.  It IS an apple tree, and so it produces apples.

Please tell me your first thoughts (ANYONE!).  I want to know and learn.  (I am not totally mature yet.)

Dan (Editor)
2016-10-15 7:05 AM

Everyone, Laird brings up a very good point in that the 4th Commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) was not part of God's law in Heaven, but was given at Creation.

What are your thoughts, did God's Moral Law (the law of love) change? If not, why not?  Please help us to understand this.

C Laird
2016-10-18 11:21 AM

I'm not necessarily saying the Sabbath was not part of God's law in heaven.  The fact that God "rested" after creation is something that a lot of denominations will latch onto, to say - "See.  God took a Sabbath day and He didn't do work on that day."  I believe this is a faulty approach to what the Sabbath actually is.  I know the definition of Sabbath, I have heard some people say Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is the Sabbath day, that no work is to be done on the Sabbath - I got it.  But if Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and in HIM we find rest - AND - you have a God inspired scripture like that of Romans 14:5-6 -  "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it."

I do not get from the Bible, that Christians are to have 52 weeks a year, with an interruption each week to stop all work to remember our bondage.   I don't celebrate the memory of my bondage.  What I see is God's hand every day, the freedom he has given me and for that I give him Glory and Praise every day. 

As I have mentioned before - for those who want to take a Sabbath rest on a specific day - by all means.. That's a wonderful tradition.  But as for me and my family, we serve the Lord - EVERY DAY.  I believe this is likely how it was done before man fell.  On earth as in heaven - a Sabbath every day. 

God bless you Dan...

Dan (Editor)
2016-10-22 12:38 PM

Laird, I appreciate your comments. You said you feel that we should worship God EVERY day, and I totally agree!  But I am sure we both agree that on most days we need to be working, right?  If that is the case then which of the days should we work on?  Seems to me that if I choose to NOT work on a specific day to honor God as Creator then I should choose the same day that He blessed and sanctified.  

Who is speaking in Deut. 5:15?  Isn't it Moses?  So who is speaking the Commandments in Exodus 20:11?  Isn't it God Himself?.  In my mind this seems very important b/c GOD is saying that the reason He gave the Sabbath rest is because He is the Creator.  They had already heard that the Sabbath was a memorial of God's creation, and were being reminded that this is the same God who brought them out of slavery.  In both cases the ones spoken to are the same group of people, Israelites (Jews).

Like I said by way of email earlier, I think you and I are on the same page. But it seems we are reading a different part of that page is all.  It is my opinion that Ex. 20 is a record of what GOD audibly said from Mt. Sinai,  vs Deut. 5:15 which is a reading years later by Moses.  Remember though that both Exodus and Deutoronomy were written by Moses. 

You had reminded us that Jesus said that the law would be written on everyone's heart. What law?  The law of love, right?  As I see it, the Commandments are "explaining" how we will act when His law is in our heart

I admire your dedication to our Creator God and that you are worshiping Him everyday.  All Christians should be this dedicated. 

Blessings my friend,
Dan

Dan (Editor)
2016-10-23 8:26 AM

Hi Laird, this morning during my own Bible reading I ran across these verses from James. Not sure why I had not brought them up before because they seem to be talking directly at what we have been discussing here. (This is from the New Living Translation.)

James 1:22-25 (NLT)
"But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it."

I don't see this as saying that we need to do what the law says so that we will gain salvation. Not at all, but why I bring it up is that it reminds us that only "law" can set us free.  It's only the law of love that can do that. 

Like I have said before, I believe that the 10 Commandments are those 10 Laws of love. But to be honest with you though, I am not sure how the 4th Commandment fits in there, unless it's like a birthday of sorts. Is God asking us to come and celebrate with Him?  Why did He put it in the Commandments?  (I really don't understand this. Help me out if u can..)

Have a gread day my friend, in Jesus.

Dan (Editor)
2016-11-01 5:53 AM

I REALLY want to understand why God put the 4th Commandment where He did, so I am just going to "think out loud" here for a bit. (Writing seems to help me organize my thoughts.)

First, we know that EVERYTHING God does is for our good. And when the 2nd Commandment says that He is a "jealous" God I think He is saying that He is jealous for OUR well being.

1 John 4:8 says that God is Love.  So if we put the word "God" in place of the word "love" in 1 Corinthians13:4 we are told that God is NOT jealous.  If God is not jealous about Himself then it appears that the reason for His jealousy is because He want us to worship only Him so that WE will be happy.

Knowing that the God of the UNIVERSE actually loves us and is jealous for us?  How should that make us feel?

Could it be that knowing that God Himself has invited us to come celebrate with HIM, to stop whatever selfish things we are doing and visit with Him, is going to make us happier?

Jesus did say in Mark 2:27  “The Sabbath was made for man..."

 

C Laird
2016-11-01 9:27 AM

Let us take this approach then.

As a Christian are you living for the flesh (man) or living in the spirit?  Whne I bowed a knee to Jesus I died to my flesh.  Mark 2:27 does say The Sabbath was made for man...  However, it continues to say, But not man for the Sabbath... We have to include that full verse.  

I'm not saying to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I'm not saying, just because the Sabbath was created after man was created (created for man) - that the other 9 commands are irrelevant - because I think they are relevant.  I just don't think they are relevant to born again Christians.
  
Read this.  Then re-read and read again.
 
Romans 2 – NKJV
 
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them ) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.
 
I don’t know your take on dispensationalism or covenant theology or w
 
The Adamic or Edenic Covenant was between God and Adam – conditional covenant.  Don’t eat from that tree.  (Law) Adam broke it.
 
Noahic Covenant – Covenant between God and mankind - Unconditional covenant – God has fulfilled it – that there would never be a destruction of the earth again – with water.  Sealed with a rainbow.
 
Abrahamic Covenant – Covenant between God and Israel (Abraham) – unconditional covenant – promised land; descendants; bless/redeem
 
Mosaic Covenant – Covenant between God and Israel (Moses) – Conditional covenant – Israel was to be obedient to the Law.
 
New Covenant –
 
This is the fun one.  Are those who have not accepted Christ under the New Covenant or under Mosaic Law or is there a third option?
 
I can buy it, that the Jews – Non-Messianic Jews are still under Mosaic Law.  What are your thoughts here??
 
Romans was written after the New Covenant was established, correct??? 
 
In Romans 2 – Does a Jew still rest on the Law?
 
Some questions:
 
Do you really think you need the letter of the law to live your life?  I have a friend here at work that believes he has the law, because otherwise, he would have a really rough time of living his life.
 
Another question to you.    If you live by the law, you will be judged by it right?
 
How do you define law?  Do you define it by Mosaic Law?  Sacrificial/Dietary/Ceremonial as the Jews do?  Let me put it another way.  Do you delineate between law of God in the Old Testament – Mosiac Law – Law developed and created for man, who is fallen and sinful and whose heart is deceitfully wicked was between God and Israel AND (this is the other side) the New Covenant which is between Jesus (who is God) and mankind who bow a knee to him – whether Jew or Gentile – but reborn, casting off old flesh, dying to self, born of the spirit, now a saint, justified by Jesus Christ – under the new law.  Love God – love others.  Burning a Lamb at the Altar – no longer relevant – Jesus was the final sacrifice.  Shellfish, pork, etc – dietary laws – word is – that what we eat to the glory of God is glorious.  (gluttony/idolizing food/etc are still of course problems and are not eaten in a manner that is glorious to God).
 
So, what about those 10 commands?  Jesus fulfilled all law right?  Says so in the scripture.  Why is it that people don’t want to accept the fullness of what Jesus Christ actually did on the cross???  Many say – yeah – Jesus just died to fulfill sacrificial law.  See here – it says he didn’t come to abolish the law.  No question – Sacrificial law was finalized with the death of Jesus.  If anyone believes we should still have sacrificial law in place, perhaps I’ve missed the latest Biblical memo and Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t enough.  But what about ceremonial law.  Maybe Jesus’ sacrifice wasn’t sufficient to fulfill ceremonial law.  Of course that statement is ludicrous.  But it’s the same argument people post up for dietary and the 10 commandments.  The way I understand it – is that people are saying – Jesus fulfilled only some of the laws.
 
The Bible is incredibly clear.  ”one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”
 Matt 5:18
 
Who said this???  And When?
 
Had he already been crucified when He said this?
 
“on jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law” – This means that the law will remain, right?  Till ALL is fulfilled…
 
Till all what is fulfilled?  And what happens when “all” is fulfilled??? 
Here is the start of Matthew 5:8 - For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
 
Did Jesus make any other prophesies??  Remember this one? “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”  John 2:19.
 
This is a side note, but have you ever read the New Testament in chronological order?  Pretty interesting.  The point I am making is context is always important.  Timing is just as important.
Do you remember Jesus saying this??
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. Matthew 24:35
Put this “My words will by no means pass away.” in contrast with “one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law”.  When all is fulfilled, heaven and earth will pass away and at least one jot and tittle will pass from the law.  Maybe all the jots and tittles will pass from the law.
But didn’t Jesus mention two commands/laws.  Matt 22:37-40 – Those will by no means pass away, right???
Next question then.  When will heaven and earth pass away???  Or has it already???
At the cross, Jesus said “It is finished” – what does that mean? “tetelestai” is the Greek.  Paid in full is a common translation.  I think we can agree at the very least – what this meant was, that Jesus fulfilled the debt of sin of mankind.  Then He died and raised Himself from the dead.  We now have the offer from Him to accept His imputed righteousness and die to our earthly ways and begin to live spiritually again with God.  That which was lost with the “spiritual death” of Adam.  “If you eat of the fruit…. You will surely die” (paraphrased)
 
Some people say heaven and earth pass away at end times.  Maybe their right.  Some people say that we won’t be with Jesus “Immediately” when we die.  Maybe their right.  But,
what if – …To live is Christ and to die is gain?
What if – …today you will be with me in paradise.
Want more???
 
But, what of the verse? – Just as people are destined to die once, and after this the judgement
 
If we don’t ever accept Christ, then what?  I don’t believe God will force us to live with Him in the afterlife.
 
When we bow a knee to Jesus, what happens?  Death? Rebirth?  What? Die to self?
 
Is there then a judgement???  Do die once and then the judgement… Does Christ then live inside of us?  How about the Holy Spirit?  Are we one with God?  Are we then measured anymore by the law?  Or by Faith?
 
That’s the question isn’t it.
 
I love Jesus.  I believe that He died on the cross for all of mankind.  I believe that Jesus did a supernatural work in me, when I first bowed a knee at the age of 33 years old after 33 years of denying the person of Jesus Christ..  He continues to do work in me.  But through this transformation, I no longer have regrets of my past.  I no longer have fear or shame for the things that were done to me and I did as a product of my environment.  What I do have, is His ability to forgive others.  Once He showed me how to do it, He then came over me and told me that I was forgiven too.  Not in a literal sense, but I felt His presence and I welcomed it.  There were no buts or caveats to his forgiveness, it was complete.  I am not given a license to sin, but sin no longer owns me and I no longer live under the law and the prophets of the Mosaic Law and the Old Testament.  However, I am bound forever more under the words of Jesus that will never fade – Love the Lord your God with all your heart, you mind, your soul and your strength and love others as yourself.  That’s it and that’s what I’m going with.
 
Make no mistake – those weren’t the only two things Jesus said – but those were the only Laws that I have learned up to this point.  Jesus did also say go out into all the world and make disciples, baptize and He also gave us the example to call out those who are stuck in sin (our brothers and sisters) as well as those like the Pharisees in the temple.
 
I love questions.  I’m always asking them.  Of God.  Of the Bible.  Of myself.  I challenge myself by stepping out in faith and speaking to the JW’s down the street.  To the Mormons across town.  To the Muslims at work, in the community and on my latest mission to Germany.  (This was amazing by the way)
 
But where I get my answers from, are the scripture.  I don’t claim to be a scholar, I certainly don’t claim to be perfect – but I most definitely have many doctrinal convictions.  I’m charged with being able to give a reason (apologia) for the hope that I have. 1 Peter 3:15.  All Christians are charged with that.
 
Dan.. It’s great talking with you.  Refreshing and enlightening.  Helps in the strengthening of my faith.  God is good…
 
Open to your thoughts about all I’ve said here.
 
And as a side note… Just because you haven’t gotten people to respond in the last X days – this could be exactly what someone needs 6 months from now or 2 years from now.  Not in our timing, right?


Dan (Editor)
2016-11-02 6:39 AM

Hi Laird, I appreciate your thoughts on not removing this Comments page even if no one else joins us.  I wasalso going to wait with my response to see if someone else would respond, but you are right.  I know others are at least reading this page, so it will remain a part of BTL, and I will go ahead and add my response now.  Thanks

God is good!  I totally agree, and your comments and questions are strengthening my faith too, and building my understanding of how awesome God is.  So a huge thanks!

Now to your questions.  I love questions too, though I am having a hard time following all you wrote above, sorry. ;)  So anyway, here are a few questions for you, along with a few other thoughts. (I will try to keep my questions and comments in line with our conversation above, at least for now.)

1)  According to the Bible, what is sin?  (1 John 3:4 "sin is the transgression of the law")
2)  If sin is the breaking of the law then there has to be a law, otherwise there would be no sin, right?
3)  Has any human (other than Jesus) NOT sinned, even born-again Christians?  (Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned...")
4)  If we ALL have sinned then we must ALL be under the law, even born-again Christians.
5)  As I mentioned before, I see the 10 Commandments as being an extention of, an explaination of, the 2 commands you spoke of in the comment above (love God & love man).   And if you do away with those 10 (even if only for Born-Again Christians) you then must do away with the main 2 Laws because they are saying exactly the same thing.  (The 10 are just telling us what we will be doing when we truly live the 2, love God and man.)
6)  The kingdom of God is built on those 2 laws of love (I cannot imagine living for eternity and needing to worry about someone stealing my stuff, trying to kill my pet lamb, calling God's name in a demeaning manner, etc.) and there isn't anything that will ever remove them.
7)  Even the Sabbath will still be observed in Heaven.  (Isa. 66:22, 23  "...from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord."
8)  Jer. 4:27 tells me that what you and I are calling "the fulfilling of the law" is evidently not the same thing.  The verses just before are talking about the earth being without form and void (much like the earth was described before Creation), but we know it is talking about a point in time in the near future because it talks about cities being broken down and the fruitful places being wildernesses.  And it tells us that

"..the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

9)  I do not believe that when Jesus was dying on the cross and cried, "It is finished!" that He was referring to the Moral Law (The 10 Commandments) being done away with because it was "fulfilled".  I do not see anything in that Law that can be "finished".  The Bible does tell us that Jesus won the battle between "good" and "evil" on the cross, yes, but that just tells me that He proved that His laws of love, including the 10 Commandments, were perfect and unchangable.  
9)  If God's laws could change, then Jesus would not have had to die.  He could have just changed His Laws.
10)  You said that you do not have a license to sin.  What I hear you saying is that because you are a born-again Christian you live by God's laws of love that are now written on your heart and that you are not feeling like you HAVE TO TRY and produce "good works".  Your good works are a "by-product" of being a born-again Christian.  Am I right?  
11)  An apple tree does not produce apples so that it can be an apple tree.  It is an apple tree and so it produces apples.  A person does not produce good works in order to be a Christian.  All true Christians will produce good works because they are true Christians.
12)  Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."


Acts 17:30 - "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent"  
Why is God winking? Because people sinned and didn't even know it?  What are people ignorant of, sinning?  What are men to repent of, sin?  

Laird, I want to hear all you have to say because I am learning and growing.  I'm loving my Lord Jesus even more as we talk.  So again, thanks!

Blessings my friend, I pray that our Lord and Savior Jesus keeps us close to Him and that you and I will meet someday "up there".

So tell me more!  

P.S.  I just cut and pasted text directly from BibleGateway and it came in as a large text.  I did not know how to change it without retyping and so I just left it.  

Dan (Editor)
2016-11-08 11:08 PM

James 2:10 (NLT)
"For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws."

God still has laws. And if God says something no man has the right to disregard it, or change it. 

Anonymous